> Apple has used version 0.9.1 of process design kit (PDK) designed for Intel 18AP node. With performance, density, power, and every other metric going according to plan, Intel could become Apple's source of advanced node production in 2027... The 18A-P node enhances Intel's 18A by incorporating RibbonFET and PowerVia technologies, which offer better performance and energy efficiency. Compared to the regular 18A node, these improvements include newly designed low-threshold voltage components, optimized elements to reduce leakage, and refined ribbon width specifications, all aimed at boosting performance-per-watt metrics.
Remember that Apple previously dual sourced SOCs from both TSMC and Samsung before dropping Samsung when they fell behind and chips built on their process node were materially worse.
This is trial production, not a done deal. Intel has to deliver on their promises.
The good news for Intel is that Apple has a long history of paying up front for dedicated manufacturing lines once a manufacturing partner proves that they can hit Apple's QC metrics and price point.
Yeah, I remember hearing NVidia did the same thing via Moore’s Law is Dead podcast. At this point it seems incredibly unlikely Intel will unseat TSMC anytime soon. TSMC has proven time and time again it is the only fab capable of producing leading edge nodes at the capacity and quality required by the likes of Apple, NVidia, and AMD. It also has substantially deeper pockets than Intel to continue to invest in staying number one.
I think if Intel is to stand a chance it’ll be via gaining momentum and market via “good enough” nodes and not cutting edge, essentially taking a page out of TSMCs playbook from the late 2000s and early 2010s. It needs more capital than it can raise, and time, both of which are hard to come by.
What, in your mind, is a "security processor module"? As far as I'm aware, there is no such entity in Apple systems; security functionality is on the same die as the CPU/GPU. (Which is a good thing; it means that communications between the CPU and that security processor cannot easily be intercepted or interfered with.)
It reminded me that for a while all SIM everywhere seemed to come from one european chip plant, although now I say it I wonder if they were just the assembly & packaging and fabrication was offshore?
In both cases (tpm and sim) the cynic would say it's only deciding which economy owns the back-door.
You are probably referring to NXP (formerly Philips) and Infineon (formerly Siemens), both of which have produced crypto processors, smartcards (including SIMs) and other secure elements for a really long time. Infineon is/was actually a really common supplier for the little 20-pin TPM/LPC modules.
Yes i think you're right. The nexus of sim, smart card and tpm seems strong. I e used thales and Luna (now also thales) HSM which are in hypothesis glamorous, but ultimately remarkably pedestrian secure devices. I wonder if they include logic from these companies. Supply chain behind FIPS120 class stuff would be an interesting story.
The funniest outcome would be Apple throwing so much money at Intel Foundry that they end up monopolizing the leading-edge nodes, like they do at TSMC, leaving the rest of Intel to fight for scraps on their own production lines. I guess Intel also uses TSMC now but... yeah, as mentioned.
At that point Intel would be a highly successful foundry business! Then they could make very high performance RISC-V cores and offer them to foundry customers who need CPU. No need for legacy x86 at that point.
I think the costs in the contract when Intel don’t deliver the volume and yields will effectively mean Apple ends up owning the remains of the company.
That would be an interesting play. Acquire a chip design and foundry company all because they couldn't meet the purposely stringent deadline, and then use their expertise and assets to produce AI chips for yourself.
If one executive hire was all it took to steal a whole process node, TSMC could never have built the lead it has (nor Intel the lead it had in previous decades).
Semiconductor manufacturing is an exercise in blood, tears and careful note taking, not Magic Secrets.
The value of that airplane would be astronomical. I would split it up into dozens of flights just to reduce risk if one of them had a mechanical problem.
Semi-clickbait headline: as others have pointed out, this is just about who fabs the Apple-designed chips, not a contemplated return to x86. Still pretty interesting if true; would be cool to see Apple diversify from TSMC. I'm rooting for Intel!
Returning as a US on shore manufacturer of Apple designed chips, and apparently not the leading edge ones. This feels like making Trump happy while Apple keeps full control.
Apple is known to be one of the kings of putting their suppliers over a barrel. There's a good chance this is mainly a move to negotiate a better deal with TSMC, and even if it's not, the chance that Intel gets a boat load of profit out of it is very small.
And historically when fabs have been separated from a business, it's always been in a way to shed a capital intensive albatross. In that case, they're normally loaded up with so much debt in the divorce that they were essentially never intended to succeed or continue to keep up, but instead just barely stay afloat on the already capitalized investment.
Not in most cases. Apple, AMD, and most other chip makers lack a fab. The design what the fabs can make, but they don't have much input into the fabs. Someone makes a fab, and you make something it can made.
Of course things are never that neat. I have no doubt the large players have input into the fabs - we have no idea what. However the two teams are still different companies, when the fab and chip design are the same company there is the possibility of more cooperation (or less - we don't know. In the best case for both there is more when it is all internal, but we don't know if this is the best case)
I'm kinda surprised this deal seems to be 18A still. While progress, 14A is what really matters, as Intel has more or less been threatening to just give up if they don't get a large 14A commitment(unless that's changed recently).
Though, if this goes well, it stands to reason Apple may be that needed commitment.
This might make Trump happy, but more importantly it makes the military happy. No military leader with any intelligence is happy with so much critical for war supply chain being in China or Taiwan - the two are showing signs of going to war with each other in the future. (it may not happen, but there are enough signs military and political leaders should worry). Military leaders are not just the US, leaders in Europe are happy too - they may not trust the US but the US is still at least a second option (and Trump is 79: he is statistically unlikely to live much longer)
Pretty sure the answer is "No" - Intel is still pretty far behind TSMC on the high-end. But the old metric of "transistor size" measured in nanometers isn't a good indicator any more. The marketing numbers don't reflect reality in ways I don't understand.
The very first sentence of the article:
"Will Apple turn to Intel for production of its M-series chips in 2027? "
So it is not returning to Intel architecture.
This link has much more information:
> Apple has used version 0.9.1 of process design kit (PDK) designed for Intel 18AP node. With performance, density, power, and every other metric going according to plan, Intel could become Apple's source of advanced node production in 2027... The 18A-P node enhances Intel's 18A by incorporating RibbonFET and PowerVia technologies, which offer better performance and energy efficiency. Compared to the regular 18A node, these improvements include newly designed low-threshold voltage components, optimized elements to reduce leakage, and refined ribbon width specifications, all aimed at boosting performance-per-watt metrics.
https://www.techpowerup.com/343423/intel-could-manufacture-a...
Remember that Apple previously dual sourced SOCs from both TSMC and Samsung before dropping Samsung when they fell behind and chips built on their process node were materially worse.
This is trial production, not a done deal. Intel has to deliver on their promises.
The good news for Intel is that Apple has a long history of paying up front for dedicated manufacturing lines once a manufacturing partner proves that they can hit Apple's QC metrics and price point.
Yeah, I remember hearing NVidia did the same thing via Moore’s Law is Dead podcast. At this point it seems incredibly unlikely Intel will unseat TSMC anytime soon. TSMC has proven time and time again it is the only fab capable of producing leading edge nodes at the capacity and quality required by the likes of Apple, NVidia, and AMD. It also has substantially deeper pockets than Intel to continue to invest in staying number one.
I think if Intel is to stand a chance it’ll be via gaining momentum and market via “good enough” nodes and not cutting edge, essentially taking a page out of TSMCs playbook from the late 2000s and early 2010s. It needs more capital than it can raise, and time, both of which are hard to come by.
Didn't that "good enough" strategy fail with Global Foundries? They "good enoughed" themselves to irrelevance.
The most obvious thing would be Intel making security processor modules. Get the supply chain for those onshore, from the US point of view.
Doesn’t require the absolute latest processes.
What, in your mind, is a "security processor module"? As far as I'm aware, there is no such entity in Apple systems; security functionality is on the same die as the CPU/GPU. (Which is a good thing; it means that communications between the CPU and that security processor cannot easily be intercepted or interfered with.)
If TSMC is compromised, getting the security processor made in the US won't help.
The CPU enforces the security boundary between web pages, apps, the OS, the hypervisor and so on. If you control that, you control everything.
I think this is a very astute comment.
It reminded me that for a while all SIM everywhere seemed to come from one european chip plant, although now I say it I wonder if they were just the assembly & packaging and fabrication was offshore?
In both cases (tpm and sim) the cynic would say it's only deciding which economy owns the back-door.
It was Gemplus. The backstory about how CIA and NSA got control over it is fascinating.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemalto#Gemplus>
You are probably referring to NXP (formerly Philips) and Infineon (formerly Siemens), both of which have produced crypto processors, smartcards (including SIMs) and other secure elements for a really long time. Infineon is/was actually a really common supplier for the little 20-pin TPM/LPC modules.
Yes i think you're right. The nexus of sim, smart card and tpm seems strong. I e used thales and Luna (now also thales) HSM which are in hypothesis glamorous, but ultimately remarkably pedestrian secure devices. I wonder if they include logic from these companies. Supply chain behind FIPS120 class stuff would be an interesting story.
The funniest outcome would be Apple throwing so much money at Intel Foundry that they end up monopolizing the leading-edge nodes, like they do at TSMC, leaving the rest of Intel to fight for scraps on their own production lines. I guess Intel also uses TSMC now but... yeah, as mentioned.
At that point Intel would be a highly successful foundry business! Then they could make very high performance RISC-V cores and offer them to foundry customers who need CPU. No need for legacy x86 at that point.
Apple did this before with Samsung, I can totally see them doing this to Intel.
I think the costs in the contract when Intel don’t deliver the volume and yields will effectively mean Apple ends up owning the remains of the company.
That would be an interesting play. Acquire a chip design and foundry company all because they couldn't meet the purposely stringent deadline, and then use their expertise and assets to produce AI chips for yourself.
Yeah they will just ruthlessly hire all the TSMC people they already have relationships with.
I trust TSMC more than Intel, and I can't help but wonder if this is related https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46045236
If one executive hire was all it took to steal a whole process node, TSMC could never have built the lead it has (nor Intel the lead it had in previous decades).
Semiconductor manufacturing is an exercise in blood, tears and careful note taking, not Magic Secrets.
More like Intel outside
If Intel make the CPUs in the USA are they going to be shipped to China for final assembly?
Packaging is something Intel does very well and they have facilities is the USA. The rumor is many companies might do final assembly with Intel.
https://www.eetimes.com/intels-embarrassment-of-riches-advan...
Why not? A single Boeing 747-8F could carry 10M-50M chips in a single trip.
I'm going to call it now, the next big heist movie is going to be about hijacking a plane/container full of AI chips valued at >$1B.
https://clip.cafe/the-departed-2006/our-target-a-major-trans...
With the way things are going: a plane carrying RAM chips.
Maybe valued at >$1B, but who do you sell it to?
You fly around the world running uncensored llms
China of course…
The value of that airplane would be astronomical. I would split it up into dozens of flights just to reduce risk if one of them had a mechanical problem.
They said 747, not 737MAX, so the risk isn't as high /s
Then again, if it were A320s, they'd be at risk of solar flares, so best go by ship I think
No, they send them back to china to put them in the retail box.
Source: https://x.com/mingchikuo/status/1994422001952555318
Semi-clickbait headline: as others have pointed out, this is just about who fabs the Apple-designed chips, not a contemplated return to x86. Still pretty interesting if true; would be cool to see Apple diversify from TSMC. I'm rooting for Intel!
At best, it’s Intel outside
TSMC's dominance is bad for the entire industry. Everybody is better off having alternatives - everybody except TSMC.
Returning as a US on shore manufacturer of Apple designed chips, and apparently not the leading edge ones. This feels like making Trump happy while Apple keeps full control.
Getting foundry services off the ground requires starting somewhere. Apple is hedging. I don’t see it as a bad thing for Intel.
> don’t see it as a bad thing for Intel
Isn't this a ringing success for their strategy of separating chip design from fabrication?
Maybe, it's unclear at the moment.
Apple is known to be one of the kings of putting their suppliers over a barrel. There's a good chance this is mainly a move to negotiate a better deal with TSMC, and even if it's not, the chance that Intel gets a boat load of profit out of it is very small.
And historically when fabs have been separated from a business, it's always been in a way to shed a capital intensive albatross. In that case, they're normally loaded up with so much debt in the divorce that they were essentially never intended to succeed or continue to keep up, but instead just barely stay afloat on the already capitalized investment.
Not clear - design depends on what can be fabricated. If you do both you get options to talk in the middle of design for both. Maybe, who knows.
Fabrication also depends on what is designed, no? There is a coupling between the two?
Not in most cases. Apple, AMD, and most other chip makers lack a fab. The design what the fabs can make, but they don't have much input into the fabs. Someone makes a fab, and you make something it can made.
Of course things are never that neat. I have no doubt the large players have input into the fabs - we have no idea what. However the two teams are still different companies, when the fab and chip design are the same company there is the possibility of more cooperation (or less - we don't know. In the best case for both there is more when it is all internal, but we don't know if this is the best case)
I'm kinda surprised this deal seems to be 18A still. While progress, 14A is what really matters, as Intel has more or less been threatening to just give up if they don't get a large 14A commitment(unless that's changed recently).
Though, if this goes well, it stands to reason Apple may be that needed commitment.
Dual sourcing keeps prices low.
This might make Trump happy, but more importantly it makes the military happy. No military leader with any intelligence is happy with so much critical for war supply chain being in China or Taiwan - the two are showing signs of going to war with each other in the future. (it may not happen, but there are enough signs military and political leaders should worry). Military leaders are not just the US, leaders in Europe are happy too - they may not trust the US but the US is still at least a second option (and Trump is 79: he is statistically unlikely to live much longer)
Has intel caught up to TSMC? I highly doubt that they can manufacture that high end chips.
Pretty sure the answer is "No" - Intel is still pretty far behind TSMC on the high-end. But the old metric of "transistor size" measured in nanometers isn't a good indicator any more. The marketing numbers don't reflect reality in ways I don't understand.
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46080424
I think a lot missed it because of Thanksgiving in the US.
Well I sure hope not. I'll never buy a mac with an Intel processor again
The very first sentence of the article: "Will Apple turn to Intel for production of its M-series chips in 2027? " So it is not returning to Intel architecture.
Perhaps the headline should have been changed when the post was made here.
Or people should read beyond the headline before commenting
Maybe they did and just really hate Intel fab
“Intel-manufactured Apple Silicon could return to Apple’s computers in 2027”
Dirt cheap M1's?
M1’s already dead, A18 Pro’s where it’s at for that.
They're talking about Intel fabbing Apple Silicon chips, not going back to x86.