> Breaking backward compatibility isn't collateral damage, it's the point.
LOL, if you say so.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone decides to build something on top of the software the react router team puts out. I went through approximately 2 major version upgrades of react router then decided I was done with it unless I had no other choice.
Why do people think being left with huge upgrade tech debt time and time again is worthwhile? There are just so many other choices out there these days. Why you'd choose this "different future" now is beyond me.
It's kinda wild to take something people really like and just keep re-writing it while keeping the same name.
They were around when Angular 1 -> Angular 2 right? No one liked that. Angular 2 is good but calling it Angular 2 when it was so different put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Google did that because they wanted the Angular userbase, but that alienated a bunch devs and many decided to switch to React (me included) instead.
Seems the remix/react router team is trying to do the same. They built something popular, and they want to use that to launch their new ideas.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, a built in userbase and explore new ideas. I get it, but why not use another name so people don't get confused or frustrated?
I went through the same pain with React Router. I would never consider using Remix or anything else from this team. It doesn't matter how great it might be or how much I might agree with the architectural principles. Who knows what shiny new idea they'll be chasing in Remix 4? I'd have to be crazy to trust them.
i have no dog in this fight and am friends with both but i think this is probably too much leaning into Remix's messaging. i think easier to think about it as "Complex inside" (React) vs "Complex outside" (Remix) - pull up a bunch of equivalent side by side code examples of both to see (this was basically all of react twitter in the month since remix relaunched)
of course React has let the complexity leak and leak and leak over the last 5 years so now the messaging isnt as neat
It seems like they need the self-awareness to say "if we have gotten it so wrong that we needed to drastically lift and change the foundation multiple times, then maybe we need to rethink our first principles"
What is the value proposition of Remix 3 then? If it's going to be incompatible with the official React ecosystem, why use Remix instead of more performant alternatives like Solid/SolidStart that don't have React's baggage?
Well I hope Shopify will have enough third party app developers in the future, now that they have moved everything to GraphQL and Remix (and killed all the other SDKs, like PHP for example), and now that we willhave a non-React Remix soon.
Im pretty sure not many devs will switch to Remix just to work on Shopify Apps…
GraphQL is such a pain. The SDKs are usually bloated. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation on those APIs feeling adhoc. Outside of rare use-cases, I feel like 99% of the time GraphQL is engineering overkill than a simple resource-based REST interface.
I'm convinced Shopify only bought Remix since so many Shopify shops started using Next.js as an external storefront. Shopify realized their moat was dissapearing and if users could roll their own storefront, they were one step closer to rolling their own backend.
> Simplicity (explicitly control when things update)
I’m not saying this is wrong, but it’s a very very weird notion of simplicity. It reminds me a bit of how C++ engineers argue that for loops are simpler than comprehensions.
I have no real knowledge of React from the developer side, but as an ordinary user who occasionally pokes around in dev tools to assign blame, React clearly is failing at Simplicity.
There are so many React websites where I see weird update bugs (e.g. updates for some parts of the page delayed by 3 seconds [not blocking render, the rest of the page is updating], or total wipe of something instead of incremental upgrades - weren't these the very problems React was supposed to solve?).
Mere excessive bloatedness I don't blame React for; all sorts of web dev fails at that.
===
The main question I have for Remix is: does the explicit `.update` trigger immediately, or does it wait so it can coalesce multiple updates?
> Breaking backward compatibility isn't collateral damage, it's the point.
LOL, if you say so.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone decides to build something on top of the software the react router team puts out. I went through approximately 2 major version upgrades of react router then decided I was done with it unless I had no other choice.
Why do people think being left with huge upgrade tech debt time and time again is worthwhile? There are just so many other choices out there these days. Why you'd choose this "different future" now is beyond me.
It's kinda wild to take something people really like and just keep re-writing it while keeping the same name.
They were around when Angular 1 -> Angular 2 right? No one liked that. Angular 2 is good but calling it Angular 2 when it was so different put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Google did that because they wanted the Angular userbase, but that alienated a bunch devs and many decided to switch to React (me included) instead.
Seems the remix/react router team is trying to do the same. They built something popular, and they want to use that to launch their new ideas.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, a built in userbase and explore new ideas. I get it, but why not use another name so people don't get confused or frustrated?
It's just exhausting
Yeah, React Router keeps changing and keeps not quite feeling right. Like they make bad abstractions and then get trapped by them.
We’re looking at Tanstack Router when we get around to it.
I went through the same pain with React Router. I would never consider using Remix or anything else from this team. It doesn't matter how great it might be or how much I might agree with the architectural principles. Who knows what shiny new idea they'll be chasing in Remix 4? I'd have to be crazy to trust them.
Honestly, it was often that I just hated NextJS enough to deal with the schlep of the Remix/RR churn.
But now TanStack Start is a thing, so they've lost the 'only viable alternative' angle.
I’ve been enjoying Vue recently. Its API so far feels like an acceptable cognitive overhead over the raw DOM.
Plus, Evan You seems like a pretty stable and drama free maintainer.
> Remix 3 chose Simplicity
i have no dog in this fight and am friends with both but i think this is probably too much leaning into Remix's messaging. i think easier to think about it as "Complex inside" (React) vs "Complex outside" (Remix) - pull up a bunch of equivalent side by side code examples of both to see (this was basically all of react twitter in the month since remix relaunched)
of course React has let the complexity leak and leak and leak over the last 5 years so now the messaging isnt as neat
It seems like they need the self-awareness to say "if we have gotten it so wrong that we needed to drastically lift and change the foundation multiple times, then maybe we need to rethink our first principles"
What is the value proposition of Remix 3 then? If it's going to be incompatible with the official React ecosystem, why use Remix instead of more performant alternatives like Solid/SolidStart that don't have React's baggage?
I haven't followed Remix 3 closely. What baggage are they taking from React apart from JSX?
Yea, or Vue or Svelte?
Well I hope Shopify will have enough third party app developers in the future, now that they have moved everything to GraphQL and Remix (and killed all the other SDKs, like PHP for example), and now that we willhave a non-React Remix soon.
Im pretty sure not many devs will switch to Remix just to work on Shopify Apps…
GraphQL is such a pain. The SDKs are usually bloated. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation on those APIs feeling adhoc. Outside of rare use-cases, I feel like 99% of the time GraphQL is engineering overkill than a simple resource-based REST interface.
Yea, i also dont like GraphQL. Why they needed to replace the good old REST interface, which was working perfectly, I will never understand.
The tech team there seems to be making some shortsighted decisions in the last couple of years. Lets see if its going to bite them in the long run...
I'm convinced Shopify only bought Remix since so many Shopify shops started using Next.js as an external storefront. Shopify realized their moat was dissapearing and if users could roll their own storefront, they were one step closer to rolling their own backend.
> Simplicity (explicitly control when things update)
I’m not saying this is wrong, but it’s a very very weird notion of simplicity. It reminds me a bit of how C++ engineers argue that for loops are simpler than comprehensions.
I have no real knowledge of React from the developer side, but as an ordinary user who occasionally pokes around in dev tools to assign blame, React clearly is failing at Simplicity.
There are so many React websites where I see weird update bugs (e.g. updates for some parts of the page delayed by 3 seconds [not blocking render, the rest of the page is updating], or total wipe of something instead of incremental upgrades - weren't these the very problems React was supposed to solve?).
Mere excessive bloatedness I don't blame React for; all sorts of web dev fails at that.
===
The main question I have for Remix is: does the explicit `.update` trigger immediately, or does it wait so it can coalesce multiple updates?